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Woodsprite

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The following review has zero spoilers, so no worries.

Woodsprite here. All those who were fans from the beginning, you know me. I'm one of you. One of the OGs. I made another thread here about how The Way of Water felt like it was missing a lot of things. It was a good movie-- it was fine-- but that was just it: it was fine. Not great, not the return to Pandora we wanted-- just... fine.

We were told that originally, movies two and three were written as one, but that they had to be split into two, and that the third movie may have the redemptive factors within that had people like us, who felt the second movie wasn't enough, satisfied.

Ladies and gentlemen, I have seen Fire and Ash, and all I have to say is: we're back. This was exactly what I wanted to see. It was like James Cameron made a movie like The Way of Water for normies, and this third movie was him looking at all the superfans like us, pointing at us, and saying, "Hey. I didn't forget about you." Fire and Ash is, without a doubt in my mind, the sequel the superfans like us wanted. Was it as good as the first? I'd say not necessarily. Was it better than the second film? By incredible leaps and bounds. This movie awakened that kid in me again. It had many elements that, yes, were pretty much copied from the first film's pacing. But it doesn't matter. It has well enough other elements in it that makes it new, refreshing, and like the journey back to Pandora we all wanted to see.

I'm not giving any spoilers. If you haven't seen it and the second movie made you feel like your fandom in the Avatar franchise was dying out, see this movie. My fandom is revitalized again. The world feels right again, and I'm on a high right now from having just seen it. People, we're so back.
 
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Discussing Avatar: Fire and Ash!

Sopyu ftu äo

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This was definitely my take on this too. I wasn't on Tree of Souls back in the day, but am old enough to have been an adult fan back in the heady days of 2009 :)
I've been meaning to give an initial view of my thoughts after first viewing. I will definitely be seeing it a few more times to come.

Overall, I utterly agree that this really is the Avatar sequel I've been waiting for since 2009. This really feels like an extension to the exploration of themes the original opened up to us. There is darkness, but it's thoughtful. As you say, The Way of Water was a fine movie, and to be fair, Way of Water did grow on me the more I watched it. I went from being pretty harsh of it in my initial thoughts after a first viewing, to feeling quite comfortable with it now. But it never surpassed, or even came close to Avatar 09 in my eyes. Fire and Ash doesn't do that either, but it absolutely beats The Way of Water, and do it so ruthlessly I can't help but feel that Cameron and friends took every criticism of The Way of Water as a deeply personal challenge. It goes hard, and it doesn't worry about leaving the mainstream behind in honouring the spirit and intent of Avatar 09.

NOTE: SPOILERS FROM THIS POINT DOWN
The good:
* The opening scene with Loak and Neteyam playing in the sky goes from amazing to heartbreaking. It is achingly beautiful and joyous with true love of life and Pandora. The next minute, I'm crying. It is the a perfect opening.

* The overall balance between forest and reef is done splendidly. With the Way of Water, I felt "cheated" out the rainforest. We spent relatively little time there and while the reef is undeniably beautifully done, we wanted the Omatikaya and the forest to be represented too. Fire and Ash balances the two perfectly. Both environments and cultures were given weight and respect. I'd go as far to say that it goes even harder than that, showing us side of the rainforest we never really explored before. Both the escape from the Mangkwan through the forest, and representation of the forest within Kiris attempt to "talk" to Eywa expand our perception of the envrionment in different ways, giving it an even greater depth. Both are done beautifully. Seeing the kids escaping up the creek through the lowland forest felt incredibly real and fleshed out. As I was sitting there, my first thought was - in a happy and appreciative way - "That reminds me of the North Creek trail!"

*
The exploration and faith and connection with Eywa was explored well. The use of Jake as a foil and neytiri standing her ground is quite heavy handed, but it was lovely just to see these openly put on display and explored, and is returned to a theme throughout ina very satisfying way with both Varang and Kiri, and is also echoed between Jake and Quaritch - which is interesting, as Jake journeys along the faith spectrum from his arguement with Neytiri, to begging Quaritch to "open his eyes". I was so pleasently suprised by this, as I was skeptical that would get anything approaching this exploration - but we weren't let down. That said, there are issues (see below). There's probabaly way more I could say this, but I'm still digesting the movie, and really need to do another watch to let more detail sink in before I can do this justice, I feel. It's pretty personal for me so it was honestly kind of overwhelming first time around.

* I was concerned that Varang was going to be a deliciously evil femme fatale like character, but she comes accross more subtely than that, in that she thinks she's all that - a "legend in her own mind" - but to everyone else is clearly hurt, scared and damaged. When her people ran into an utter horror story for which they are unprepared, she took a wrong turn. Rather than turning the strengths of her community, and the bonds between the clans to look out for eachother and who could help her people - she instead gave in to her ego and hubris, actign almost like a petulant child, while having to navigate the horrors of the world she's conjured up for herself and her people. There's absolutely more to explore with her, but taking the stance of a flawed and scared woman who is ultimately out of her depth, rather than being some slick supervillian, it opened up the way to much more subtle character, with some messages and stories to share.

* The "realistically decent but imperfect" Na'vi. One of the very few flaws of Avatar '09 was that it was essentially the "propaganda film" for the Na'vi. We see all their strengths, but pretty much none of their imperfections. Fire and Ash really fleshes out the Na'vi (both Omatikaya and Metkayina - the Mangkwan ren't really relevent here I feel) as fundamentally decent, good and sound cultures, but not ones without their imperfections and blindspots, especially the attittude of the Metakyina council to taking on board dissenting voices that go against any established consensus. The Tulkun are shown in the same way. This adds a lovely grey area that allows the Na'vi to be the "hopeful future" or "the people we always aspired to be" while also being flawed enough they don't feel ethereal, unrelatable or just plain boring. It's a perfect mix.

The bad:
* The windtraders. They really didn't much screentime, and I suspect this was 1. A good thing, and 2. Something JC and team knew was a good thing, having tried and failed to get them "right", and cutting them back to the bare minimum role. Honestly, it's hard to pick any one thing here, but the whole Windtrader culture just didn't work. They weren't Na'vi of Pandora... If anything they felt like extras blown in from Captain Shakespeare's crew in Stardust. The language they use just doesn't fit. The way their culture works just doesn't fit. They command their vessel, not bond with the other animals who carry them. Even the Mangkwan have a better bond with those they rely on. They were entirely unneccssary to the story, and felt it would have been better to just cut them out entirely.

* The "face of Eywa". This one immediately leapt out at me, and I commented on it when someone else noticed it on the Avatar subreddit. When is Kiri within Eywa and trying to "talk" to her, I was really happy to see this, but wondering how they were going to do it. It's a difficult brief for the artists to work out how to depict it, so I don't envy them or want to diminish their skill, let alone the Avatar team's dedication to presenting this story, as it's a really important part of the message, IMHO.

That said, to be 100% honest, I was saddened by the decision to go with an anthropomorphic - or should that be na'vimorphic - take on how to depict Eywa. I think this is down to the cultural expectation among western audiences (and assumptions among artists) that the awareness of Eywa (as Grace described her in TWOW) must be somehow centred on the Na'vi, as that is what the audience understands and can translate from their own, largely abrahamic culture, with it's anthropocentric and human exceptionalist assumptions - imago dei and all that.

To be fair, Kiri *is* central to the story of how Eywa is involved in the situation, and so there is an understandable wish to emphasise this visually by echoing her image. However, the way it is done is heavy handed and just reinforces the anthropocentric assumptions of the audience rather than challenging them.

For me, coming from an ecocentric perspective that has always found a resonance in the Avatar universe, it honestly cut a little close and felt wrong in the same way the windtraders felt wrong, and I wish they'd gone in a different visual language in this scene. There is a lot you could have done to convey being in the centre of Eywa's awareness in a more ecocentric way. The first movie did this really well. When Grace died, the vines and tendrils of the Tree of Souls transforming into light and threads resembling mycelia as she passing into Eywa was done fantastically without any anthropocentric imagery. I think this could have been done here - as Kiri pushes toward the light filtering through through the vines and canopy of the forest (which is absolutely perfectly done!) it could gradually become less dark and "woody", transforming into bioluminescent tendrils and mycelia following in the shapes of the vegetation and critters, then gradually becoming brighter and more and more overlapped / interwoven with each other. This would reflect the ecocentric concepts of entangled, interwoven and interdependent / symbiotic life, which are prominent themes in the way the Na'vi cultures are depicted, and which is generally done really frikkin well. This entwining of the vines and mycelia would also have worked in reflecting the imagery and role of the tsyong (cephalopods/squids) in the final scenes as the influence of Eywa acting against the humans, where their tentacles are very prominent - which themselves hark back the concept of ecocentric entanglement.
 

Eltu

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I'll be watching it early January, will be interesting to see the kind of direction it's taking!

Avatar was always more of a life chapter than a film to me, so as with Way of Water I'm setting my expectations accordingly, but I'm looking forward to it :)
 
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@Woodsprite @Sopyu ftu äo : Perfectly said! Exactly how I felt about ATWOW and AFAA. I'm also an OG (originally from the now defunct NaviBlue site). I left Fire & Ash with a smile on my face, the same awe & feels that I hadn't felt since the first Avatar, and the urge to see it again (good thing we had preordered tickets weeks earlier for an advance screening and opening day). Still have the urge to see it again, and will probably keep going every week until it leaves theaters (and you know, then buy the 3D BluRay & 4K collectors discs).
 

Woodsprite

One of the First
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I'll add something else that I think is helpful for those who haven't seen it yet: this movie didn't feel like a long-short movie. The story felt like it actually mattered all throughout. The Way of Water used a lot of its time to try to help audiences care about the characters, for character development, but it sacrificed the pacing and as a result felt slow. This doesn't feel slow at all: everything that happens actually moves the story forward.
 
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Sopyu ftu äo

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Absolutely true. I didn't even find time for a toilet break :D - It dashes along, but still finds time to explore culture. That's damn good pacing.
 
i saw AFAA on Saturday the 20th, it was everything i wanted, except i wanted more at the end of 3 hours and 15 minutes. i could've sat for four hours lol. i need to go back for the 3D version, they were all sold out all weekend.
 
If I'd known you guys were posting here again, I would have shown up sooner :)

In any case, I enjoyed AFAA first of all. And I think it was a worthy part 3 to the franchise. It didn't have the same impact on me as the first movie. Also, I don't think AFAA is necessarily better than TWOW. To me TWOW and AFAA are on the same level, just very different movies.

The thing I didn't really get out of AFAA was that same sense of wonder and balance that the first two movies gave me. Because so much was happening, there just wasn't really a breather to take things in. That said, due to the sheer amount of content, AFAA probably has the highest rewatch value of all 3 movies so far.

While I think that the characters of Quaritch and Varang were handled well, the thing about them is that for me they dominated the movie so much that they kind of blotted out the rest of what was going on. I'm sure I will see the movie in a different light the next time. That is the fun part of these movies. Watching them is never the same as the previous time.
 
Hi. This is the first time I post after over 10 years again, thanks Eltu for resetting my access that was long lost.
I share a lot of your feelings there. After the first movie I spent 5 years online with the impact the movie had on me, and some more time offline later, so it really was a life chapter indeed. Still, I did somehow expect at least some of that come back after AWOW but it did barely happen. I thought it was a really nice and beautiful movie, I loved all the scenery and the underwater scenes and I cried a few times. When AWOW was hinted at back in the days I did start to pick up scuba diving in about 2016 and its a great thing to do and made AWOW feel connected to what I do see in real life at the reefs. Unlike my sadly failed attempt to "ride an ikran" by learning hang gliding. But still - I saw it once in the theatre and then twice at home on my video projector and then I moved on.
But its different with AFAA for some reason. I first saw it in a cinema nearby in 3D and it was again really good but I thought at first it will be the same as AWOW and just be that and thats it, but I did feel like I had to watch it again because I was overwhelmed with all the action and fast cuts and I felt I had missed so much. So in the evening of Dec 24 I decided I want to get a ticket and I wanted to see if I can get in in IMAX because I hated the 3d effect in the cinema nearby, I felt like I do not see everything. So I looked it up online, found an IMAX 150km away because I found out that all IMAX in the state were closed and this is the only one. I looked up tickets for Dec 25 and saw they had 3 showings of AFAA and in all of them all the center seats were booked except one seat in row 6 center at 11:00 so I took it. I think its actually one of the beast seats - I later saw a clip of Cameron describing exactly that place. And it was reclined seats as well. So great, I went there, 90 min drive to get there in the morning on christmas day and I already thought I must be a bit crazy. When I went in there were cameras from TV there, I was wondering because AFAA came out some days earlier but it turns out that it was the opening of that IMAX - its part of a larger cineplex and they rebuilt one of their rooms for IMAX and this was the very first time it was open to the public. What a coincidence really - so I did get a perfect seat that barely anyone ever sit on for AFAA in 3D IMAX and I was very much blown away. I did finally see all the details that I missed before and as it filled my peripheral view it was so much more immersive and the 3d worked perfectly.
And coming home there it was again - the feeling of homesickness and all that. Maybe it will not be as in 2009 as this was just a very different experience but it still is there with AFAA when it was not so much with AWOW. I do not really know why for sure.

Thoughts on AFAA containing spoilers:
Now I think some things may have contributed. Despite me doing the scuba diving and loving underwater I am also very much a forest person and the forest came back in the movie. Also the whole load of new characters to remember was kind of done with AWOW and I did not have to concentrate to learn much about new people. There was again more areal scenes as well and maybe it was a lot of the visuals overall. I still do miss the contemplative calm scenes with the great music of the first movie though - AFAA was very fast cut, short scenes, quick changes, lot of action, not much time to just take in the feeling. But somehow it still worked.
I have some takes on the widely discussed special parts of the movie as well.

* The Ash tribe was fascinating as a concept. Varang was depicted very well as this psychotic, traumatized power-driven leader whose motivation was very relateable - they lost their home, they lost their faith and they lost their feeling of safety - something everyone loving Pandora felt in the first and second movies when it comes to Pandora without humans. They do want to feel safe and the only way they see how to do this now is through power and control. Controlling their environment and other people is how they get a bit of that safety back. And this 100% mirrors human civilization and its development. People do not want to rely on migratory herds to come by but raise cattle in fenced areas, they dont want to rely on fruits and berries growing in the wild to they plant orchards and breed more reliable trees. To do this they have to own land, drive off other people, control nature, use metal tools, the wheel, build houses against the natural weather and so on. This is basically exactly what in the Pandora lore Eywa prohibits. So I loved the concept of the tribe but I missed that they put the consequences into images. At least by now they are mainly depicted as aggressive raiders that become the allies of the colonizers as happened a lot in history before, so they took a bit of a different path in developing the tribe, which I think may be a missed opportunity but maybe it was too complex to get across to a general public. What I do wish we could have seen as kind of memory flashbacks during the drug induced trip of Q was visuals about the creation of the Ash culture. It would have been a perfect opportunity for flashbacks that dont break the story as we already are in a drug hallucination situation and Varang does tell the story. But that story was missed by some viewers even. They could have shown that volcano actually destroying their hometree, people crying, ash all over, the trauma they had. It would have been a repeat or mirror of the hometree destruction in the first movie in a way but with a different outcome.
* Mirror Mirror - I think this is something that seems to be happening but I am not sure if it really is desired and planned or if I am just interpreting it because it could have been made a bit more visible - but maybe it will develop in the next movies. I see this: The reaction of the Omaticaya Clan to the destruction mirrors the one the Ash tribe. Both tribes pray to Eywa but one gets comfort and the other feels nothing. One rebuild and fight the RDA while preserving their balance, the other fights with the RDA and cherishes imbalance. Same story but opposite outcomes. Then we see Quaritch mirroring Jake. Both are soldiers coming to Pandora, getting a Avatar body, embrace that body for its abilities they did not have before, learn how to move in nature, get an Ikran, learn the language find a female partner and join a tribe. But their paths are not parallel bit they are mirrored. This is also why I do not think a redemption arc will happen anytime soon (maybe something centered about family, his son but maybe more like a Darth Vader moment at the end). Jake explores the world, is fascinated, playful, observant, loving, following the culture, having faith and looking for balance and acceptance by others and finally is granted his weish to a new life in his Avatar body by the clan and Eywa. Q is given a permanent Avatar body against his will, then goes on and dominates - he utilizes - he sees that he will not be harmed by nature now and uses this to avoid opposition, he goes and takes any Ikran he can find and forces himself onto it, he learns the language so he can threaten people at the reefs, he finds a partner not by love but by showing and sharing power. He answers "Damn right you do" instead of "I see you", he is taken up by the clan because he gives them power. So in a way it is the same path but again mirrored and upside down.

* The wind traders. I loved the idea of them. They do have these windrays with a navigator that is bonded with them, they have a herd of windrays so its not one animal pulling the ship all the time. They have a unique culture as nomads and more like the travelling folk on earth with a bit of circus and exotic atmosphere around them. But it was not seen clearly in the movie. I did not even see the navigator on the windray the first time without the IMAX and I only learned about the backstory from interviews. Like with the origin of the Ash people I wished they had done more "show not tell" here. So the appearance was too brief to really understand them and get how they fit into that world really. Cameron did say he wants to bring them back and describe them a lot more in the next movies so hopefully he has some good concepts to make them fit in. I did like the overall concept of nomads and travellers living with the floating but very vulnerable animals as their home.

* The face of Eywa. This has gotten so many memes and I get it - it was weird. We still do not know what is the deal exactly with Kiri and Eywa - why she was rejected to connect to the trees of souls and Eywa herself but at the same time connects to nature all the time. Cameron said so much that this is one of the few open threads he left dangling for future movies while he supposedly tried to solve most others in this movie in case its the last one. But that face was a weird thing to see - people analyzed it and found its probably the face of a NaVi human hybrid with theories sprouting that Eywa is actually human or something else like the original alien that created both worlds or what not. I personally think the best explanation is that that face basically is again a mirror - A kind of interface for those who connect to have something tangible to look at. Eywa does not have a face herself but she takes what those who do come so close to her expect and mirrors it. So basically Kiri saw a reflection of herself there. But this was not clearly enough stated. I think it would resolve some of the issues viewers had with that scene if Cameron did intend it that way and if they had shown this a bit more clearly. If this was not the intention, then yeah I am feeling it would be really weird as well and they better give a good explanation in the sequels.
 
Saw it with the wife last week on NYE in Cinemark's XD 3D Theater. I was blown away almost like the first one. Movies barely have an impact on me emotionally but this film had my goose bumps working overtime to the point I started feel a little exhausted. LOL. I bought a large popcorn and did not eat it till almost an hour into the movie as I was just mesmerized. Then the scenes with the leader of Fire and Ash clan in the tent with Quaritch tripping was a fantastic scene. They way she speaks just puts me in awe. The whole film was fantastic.

Going again on Tuesday with my mother. Her and I saw both films together and will see this one too.
 
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Saw it with the wife last week on NYE in Cinemark's XD 3D Theater. I was blown away almost like the first one. Movies barely have an impact on me emotionally but this film had my goose bumps working overtime to the point I started feel a little exhausted. LOL. I bought a large popcorn and did not eat it till almost an hour into the movie as I was just mesmerized. Then the scenes with the leader of Fire and Ash clan in the tent with Quaritch tripping was a fantastic scene. They way she speaks just puts me in awe. The whole film was fantastic.

Going again on Tuesday with my mother. Her and I saw both films together and will see this one too.
Yes it was really the first time since 2010 that I went home and just felt emotionally affected even hours and days later. Like with the first one almost. I cannot explain it really as a lot of it was basically very similar to the second movie with the second movie actually having more of those nice scenes just exploring the underwater world and getting into that and the third just built on that initially. The wind traders and Ash people of course created really fascinating new elements and I guess maybe I just am more of a forest person and they did a lot more in the forest again so that also may be part of it. So I managed to get a free ride to near the IMAX this week and so I will go see it there again. I kind of feel seeing it in that local cinema would not ruin it for me but diminish the experience.
 
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