Transsexuality

[Woodsprite]

"Having trouble" with gender identity is like a psychological... mistake, imo. There's something wrong. It isn't a "genetic goof", it's a mental disassociation with one's self. Men are men, and women are women. If they want to be each other, fine. They may be happy with themselves, and that's fine, too. Retarded people are also happy with themselves. That doesn't mean there isn't something mentally wrong with it. It's called GID for a reason.

 

[Icu]

Yet not too far in the future the term GID will be looked back upon with shame.

 

[Ashen Key]

They may be happy with themselves, and that's fine, too. Retarded people are also happy with themselves.

...seriously, Woodsprite? SERIOUSLY?

 

[Isard]

Keep baiting woodsprite. I'm not biting.

 

[Woodsprite]

Not baiting. Just stating what I think. But if I truly was trying to bait anyone, you just bit by posting.

 

[Tsyal Makto]

*sits back with bucket of popcorn*

This should be fun to watch...

Place your bets, folks!

Woodsprite vs. Ashen/Isard.

The fight of the century. LET'S GET READY TO RUMBLE!!!

Now, as for the main topic. Eh, different strokes for different folks, I guess. I'm happy with the goods I got, but if someone else isn't, it's their choice on how to handle their own bodies.

 

[Sothis]

"Having trouble" with gender identity is like a psychological... mistake, imo. There's something wrong. It isn't a "genetic goof", it's a mental disassociation with one's self. Men are men, and women are women. If they want to be each other, fine. They may be happy with themselves, and that's fine, too. Retarded people are also happy with themselves. That doesn't mean there isn't something mentally wrong with it. It's called GID for a reason.

Woodsprite, one of my dear friends is trans. He was born female and recently (last two years) became male. His decision was not a result of a "psychological mistake" or "mental disassociation," and there is nothing "mentally wrong" with him.

Trans people are a small percentage of the population, so I can see why it would seem odd or unnatural or even creepy to you. And there was a time when I might have thought the same. But that was years ago, and I've learned a lot since then. Believe me... if you met my friend and knew him personally the way I do, his male identity would seem absolutely natural. I actually find it really jarring now to try to think of him of a girl, even though the change happened relatively recently. He's male through-and-through, and he is SO MUCH happier and healthier, now that he's officially acknowledged that and aligned his life with it... I can't even BEGIN to describe it to you.

Yes, being trans often involves a lot of cognitive dissonance, but that dissonance is imposed from the outside... society treats you like you are one gender, and subsequently you try to live your life with that gender. But meanwhile you're a different gender inside. I can tell you that my friend went through absolute emotional hell trying to reconcile his true identity with the identity that he was assumed to have. Having witnessed that (and it was tough to witness), it seems really unfair to blame the dissonance on something inside him, as opposed to something wrong with how he was expected to be. He is who he is, and who he is happens to be male. Do you really have the right to tell someone that who they are is wrong, when it doesn't even hurt anyone else?

Like I said, it would be hypocritical of me to accuse you of baiting or trolling or being a terrible person. I expect you haven't had the same opportunity to really get to know someone who is trans. I trust that you're sincere in your opinion, and I might have agreed with you a long time ago. But to put it plainly, it just ain't so.

 

[Woodsprite]

Now, as for the main topic. Eh, different strokes for different folks, I guess. I'm happy with the goods I got, but if someone else isn't, it's their choice on how to handle their own bodies.

I completely agree. It's their choice.

@Sothis: I don't mean "mentally wrong" as in "she's crazy". I mean people like that have a problem associating with themselves in terms of gender. This isn't normal behavior. To give a similar analogy, it's like someone acting completely sane, carrying out regular day-to-day activities, living on his own, paying taxes, having a job, a girlfriend, and in complete sync with society. The only problem is, he thinks he's really Benjamin Franklin living in the future. That's not normal. There's something mentally wrong with him. It's a diminutive disorder (like being trans-gender), but a disorder nonetheless.

As I said, there's a reason why the concensus of psychologists put a label on this disorder.

 

[Unilyu]

I agree that it's their choice, would you hate on someone (not saying anyone here's hating, but I couldn't think of a better term) if they didn't like being human and changed themselves into a na'vi?

 

[Woodsprite]

That's just what I mean. There's no reason to hate the person doing this. It's just a mental disorder that the person feels he/she must act upon.

Although, the analogy is a bit flawed, considering how once you become Na'vi, you're actually, physically a different being that possesses every single quality a Na'vi possesses, including the ability to make tsaheylu and reproduce. Trans-gendered people are not, and never will be able to make a complete transition from male to female, or female to male.

 

[Sothis]

I completely agree. It's their choice.

@Sothis: I don't mean "mentally wrong" as in "she's crazy". I mean people like that have a problem associating with themselves in terms of gender. This isn't normal behavior. To give a similar analogy, it's like someone acting completely sane, carrying out regular day-to-day activities, living on his own, paying taxes, having a job, a girlfriend, and in complete sync with society. The only problem is, he thinks he's really Benjamin Franklin living in the future. That's not normal. There's something mentally wrong with him. It's a diminutive disorder (like being trans-gender), but a disorder nonetheless.

As I said, there's a reason why the concensus of psychologists put a label on this disorder.

The problem with your analogy is that the example person actually ISN'T Benjamin Franklin living in the future, but my friend actually IS male.

I think you are confusing "sex" and "gender," which is a common issue. A useful quote that I've heard is "Sex is what's between your legs. Gender is what's between your ears. Orientation is what's between your sheets."

 

[Sothis]

As I said, there's a reason why the concensus of psychologists put a label on this disorder.

Actually, this is not true. The good psychologists don't consider being transgender a disorder at all, in the sense that there is something "wrong" with how they perceive themselves.

 

[Woodsprite]

Your friend isn't male. I assure you. It's a mental disorder. It's like a mantra; you can say it over and over that she's a man, she's a man... but she isn't. It's a trait that has been brought about from years of encouragement by others to pursue an identity that she can never, and will never be. She was born a female and she'll die a female. You can put a label that says "peas" on all the cans of green beans there are in the world. That doesn't make them peas. Just because she has a life-long history surrounding this issue doesn't make her disorder any less of a disorder than it actually is.

...Who are "the good psychologists"?

 

[Sonoran Na'vi]

Your friend isn't male. I assure you. It's a mental disorder. It's like a mantra; you can say it over and over that she's a man, she's a man... but she isn't.

But what makes one male or one female?

 

[Woodsprite]

But what makes one male or one female?

Birth.


Sothis, I think you should read this. That's not the only example I have, by the way.

 

[Sonoran Na'vi]

Birth.

I do not think whether one is male or female is determined at birth. Going this route, I think sex is determined when the sperm and the egg join.

 

[Woodsprite]

That's what I meant. Conception. You're right.

 

[Sonoran Na'vi]

That's what I meant. Conception. You're right.

Happens to the best of us . The next question that come to my mind is whether or not gender is determined by what determines sex.

 

[Woodsprite]

If examples abound of people who have had double sex changes, that proves my point about how gender is indeed indicated by how you were born. There's an emotional connection to our sex that dictates our gender identity, and trans-gendered people are only feeding the idea that they want to be the opposite gender, while ignoring their true identity. "Gender Identity Disorder". GID. Deep down, psychologically, we all know who and what we really are.

 

[Sonoran Na'vi]

If examples abound of people who have had double sex changes, that proves my point about how gender is indeed indicated by how you were born. Deep down, psychologically, we all know who we really are.

But what about people that have just one sex change? Wouldn't that prove the opposite point if we make such instances our only criteria?