So. What happened?

[Woodsprite]

I don't necessarily think I have any right over other fans of the franchise to bad-mouth anything. One day I'm sure I'll come to enjoy the sequel more so than I did in theaters, but that day has yet to come.

I'm directing this as an opportunity to discuss our varying theories on what caused the hype for the Avatar series to die far more quickly after the second film's release than it did for the first. For example, a lot of us members who've been here from ground zero are very aware of how much the hype increased for the second film over an incredibly short period on this very forum. Many of us were convinced that the second film would see an extreme uptick in revitalized activity akin to the days of yore in early 2010 when this forum was first founded. We were certain that there would be new life in this series that would shake the internet.

But we were wrong.

The reality was quite different. Activity did indeed increase, and there was an uptick in members coming onboard and some discussions got off the ground, but as far as the comparisons go for this, it was equivalent to Alexander the Great's empire compared to the Roman Empire: Alexander's lasted as long as he was alive, and Rome spanned for virtually 2,000 years. Avatar is Rome, and The Way of Water is Alexander. And this is intriguing as well, because The Way of Water made exorbitant amounts of box office cash. It was a sensation, a success, and widely loved by audiences and critics. But almost as soon as it received the accolades, it faded from reports after little more than 6 to 7 months. So what happened? Had the nostalgia not hit the way everyone expected? Was it the audience having different proclivities than they did 13 years prior? Was it the storyline? Was it the music? Was it the character development? Was it the effects? Was it the lack-of-discovery attribute that it couldn't avoid since most were already familiar with the first film?

I think I have an answer: it was the composition.

By "composition" I'm referring to the nature of the film's artistic design, particularly when it comes to the shots. How did the first film begin and end? Jake's eyes. But there was metaphor happening. When a new character was introduced, what did it look like in the shot? What colors were present? Was it daytime or nighttime? There were very specific choices made. With the music: the music made statements. James Horner was very specific in what he did to introduce the film's gravity in the beginning, the discovery aspects in the middle, and the emotionally charged focal points of the end (the woodwinds and strings culminating their tonal cadence of one of the prime themes during Neytiri's first glimpse of Jake in his human form as she sheds tears; the "First Flight" cue reprised as the Na'vi pray over Jake's transition; the upped volume and intensity of the tribal drums as the screen smash-cuts from Jake's opened avatar eyes to the title "AVATAR"). There was art in the filmmaking process of its composition IN ADDITION to all the other attributes of the film's achievements.

The Way of Water had virtually everything that the first film had except one thing: the attention to the composition. Why did The Matrix Resurrections seem different than the other films, despite have a solid storyline? The composition was gone. Why do all Zack Snyder films seem so iconic and memorable, even if you didn't think they were actually good? The composition. The shots. The way the world is framed, and the characters within that world. Avatar had this. The Way of Water, in my opinion, did not.

That's why I think the hype behind the second film didn't create the same long-term reaction, even if it was generally well-received-- the film was ultimately not as memorable with its imagery as the first. And that's not to say the film was forgettable: it certainly was not forgettable. But the way it looked was. How does The Way of Water begin? What shot do we see? Is it a metaphor for something? Is it a character? A foreshadowing of something? No, it's a general wide angle of multiple environments on Pandora. Beautiful environments, absolutely-- but there's no rhyme or reason for the shots. It's just nostalgia-bait. Is the music deliberate and utilizing itself as a storytelling device in the beginning? No, it's a slightly more epic version of the main motif. Again: nostalgia-bait.

Like I said: there will come a day when I accept the film as something to love. I'm also not trying to knock people who enjoyed the movie. I'm overjoyed that the second film was a success, and that many thought it was wonderful. I'm just trying to make sense of why the first film isn't as talked about over a year after its release. And don't tell me it's because the first film had game-changing effects. The effects were indeed game-changing, but that's not why people were talking about it long after it came out.

Discuss.

 

[Blazil]

Many of us were convinced that the second film would see an extreme uptick in revitalized activity akin to the days of yore in early 2010 when this forum was first founded. We were certain that there would be new life in this series that would shake the internet.

But we were wrong.

That was exactly what I thought as well last year in December, and for a brief period it seemed to be that way, but then it died...

I think I have an answer: it was the composition.

You make some fair points in your explanation. However, I think that most audience members nowadays are not able to perceive subtlety and literary devices and if they do, most wouldn't care that deeply. So I doubt that the composition alone (or lack thereof) was the primary reason the fan-base didn't take off to become a permanently populated one, like at other well known franchises.

Personally I think the following reasons were the cause of that:

1. Lack of new material. Yes, we just got a new movie of above average length, but in a time when Netflix series or a movie every year are the norm, I believe people lose interest if there is insufficient material to consume. Why would they invest themselves into Avatar where they have to wait years, when Star Wars for example gives them a new TV episode almost every week nowadays?
   • I think not having an animated series for Avatar was a huge mistake franchise-wise. I doubt Star Wars would be as popular today if the Clone Wars animated series had never happened and everybody would have had only the prequel movies to chew on for 10 years. The Clone Wars series drew in an entire new generation of fans.
2. Avatar being likely the most politically charged franchise of recent times. I heard it being described with terms ranging from 'woke' to 'cultural appropriation' (how can culture, an unlimited resource, even be appropriated?). That by itself, or the internet fall-out of it, may be off-putting for some people. I believe people are more reluctant to declare themselves Avatar fans as opposed to for example Star Wars fans because the latter would be more "acceptable". I think nobody really reads a political message into people dressing up as storm troopers at fan conventions, but what if people dress up as Na'vi or as RDA troops? Would that still convey the same innocent fun?
3. Related to item #1: there is not enough story-telling-depth in the franchise at this moment. Some people who otherwise could have been interested in the Avatar franchise are for example still alienated by the fact that humans are mainly the bad guys and Na'vi the good guys and that the overall franchise story is somewhat shallow. In some circles people refer to the RDA as the 'good guys' since they identified more with them than with the Na'vi.

And don't tell me it's because the first film had game-changing effects. The effects were indeed game-changing, but that's not why people were talking about it long after it came out.

I think the first Avatar was a perfect all-round combination of elements that resonated better with people. It being completely new at the time was likely also a factor. I believe a lot of people who were initially fans eventually grew out of it (due to lack of new material) and moved on, looking back to the franchise as just a phase they went through. I think TWOW was hampered by being released so late. It failed to properly facilitate continuity for the fan-base; old fans had mostly moved on by that point and its perhaps dated format failed to hold the attention of new fans that are mostly used to episodic series.

Therefore I think that this rumor that there would be a 9 hour version of Avatar 3 that would be cut into a mini series actually makes a lot of sense to do if they want to salvage the current state of the franchise.

 

[Sopyu ftu äo]

I'm directing this as an opportunity to discuss our varying theories on what caused the hype for the Avatar series to die far more quickly after the second film's release than it did for the first. For example, a lot of us members who've been here from ground zero are very aware of how much the hype increased for the second film over an incredibly short period on this very forum. Many of us were convinced that the second film would see an extreme uptick in revitalized activity akin to the days of yore in early 2010 when this forum was first founded. We were certain that there would be new life in this series that would shake the internet.

But we were wrong.

[...]

The Way of Water had virtually everything that the first film had except one thing: the attention to the composition. Why did The Matrix Resurrections seem different than the other films, despite have a solid storyline? The composition was gone. Why do all Zack Snyder films seem so iconic and memorable, even if you didn't think they were actually good? The composition. The shots. The way the world is framed, and the characters within that world. Avatar had this. The Way of Water, in my opinion, did not.

That's why I think the hype behind the second film didn't create the same long-term reaction, even if it was generally well-received-- the film was ultimately not as memorable with its imagery as the first. [...]

Discuss.

I agree that there definitely hasn't been a long lasting imapct as with Avatar '09. Composition may be part of it, but in my personal opinion, I think it's more of a coming together of several elements, or rather them not coming together. Having watched both movies several times in the last year I'd say Avatar '09 does still consistently come off as a much more impactful film. Obviously this is subjective, since we all relate to stories and visual media differently and it's a highly personal thing, but having found that watching TWOW really just reignites my passion for Avatar '09 rather than creating it's own spot in my heart, that's my take.

1. Splashing around in the shallow end of the world building pool. A pet peeve of mine, but Avatar '09 went above and beyond on cultural and world building immersion. I'd go so far to say as Avatar '09 was two vital elements - a relatable, heartfelt message, and a breathtaking swan dive into constructed culture, and the two reinforced eachother well. And the detail and dedication to constructing a fictional culture was outstanding. Language, material culture, envrionment, artistic expression, bheaviour and spirituality all were exceptionally well thought out and completed each other in a natrual way that left no sense of jarring or sloppiness. The extended cuts of the movie led us through this culture with detail and thought - and the character of Jake was a perfect POV for us being led on his journey of learning Omatikaya ways. To be honest, the story was just detail and a basic framework to support our exporation of this culture and envrionment and hear the message that JC wanted to go with it. By contrast, TWOW really didn't do that... at all. I'm sure the Metkayina and the Ta'unui have a culture, and maybe one day we'll get to see it... but that day hasn't come yet. All we really know is that they swim rather than fly. We literally know more about tulkun culture than we do about the Metkayina. And the Ta'unui we know absolutely nothing about - other than the fact they understandably don't like watching an ilu get murdered in cold blood. The ctrl+C / ctrl+V application of Maori elements to the Metkayina felt slapdash and lazy. Had Avatar '09 not been so damn good at this it wouldn't be so obvious... but if you set the bar high, you have to keep up the effort.

2. The long short movie. TWOW is long, and my bladder has attested to this on multiple ocassions. However, it's also short... or at least, doesn't use it generous run time wisely. We learn less in this generous run time than we do in Avatar 2009, which was much shorter. Some scenes, like the tulkun hunt and final fight are prolonged affairs, while others feel absurdly rushed, or just skipped entirely. When people say the movie was too long, I feel it's often this they are thinking of, rather than literal run time. I wouldn't begrudge the time at all, and would happily sit through an extended cut, if it were used better.

3. The beauty of being clever. To be fair, if I was JC I'd like to show off too, but there is a big differnce in visual language between Avatar 09 and TWOW, and I agree the visuals just aren't as memorable. I have no doubt the underwater work was ground breaking and kudos to the team as it must have been a super difficult production process - and it does look good. But it isn't beautiful in the way Avatar 09 is. It is not get down on your fucking knees and cry beautiful - and Avatar 09 absolutely is. I remember going into the cinema first time to see TWOW, and the first thing you see is the aerial view of flying over the forest through the clouds, and it made me choke up because it took me right back to that feeling of the first movie. None of the introduced visual envrionments of TWOW (the reef, the mangroves or highcamp) had a deep impact on me. Sure, the reef is beautiful, but it doesn't have the same deep tug on your senses and heart that we saw in '09. I get the feeling we were meant to marvel at how clever the production was rather than marvel at the beauty of Pandora, and the Na'vi cultures.

4. Going through the motions. Hard to describe, but I do feel TWOW feels like a vaguely forced sequel. It picks up story threads because it has to but I can't help but get the impression that it feels like a forced exercise in tryin to continue on a satisfying story that you thought you had finished. "Oh, shit... we need to write more? Ummmm.... OK, well how about this?" - Having read the comics, I feel that a more satisfying follow up story would have been to go with something like Next Shadow. It feels like a much more "natural" continuation to me. It's not that the story is bad... is just feels hasty and a bit awkward.

To be honest, making TWOW was always going to be hard, as Avatar '09 broke a lot of the rules in the way Hollywood movies are meant to work, and the auidance demographic was pretty non-standard too. By all rights, I shouldn't be the target demographic for a sci-fi action movie (middle aged woman), yet here I am.

That was exactly what I thought as well last year in December, and for a brief period it seemed to be that way, but then it died...


You make some fair points in your explanation. However, I think that most audience members nowadays are not able to perceive subtlety and literary devices and if they do, most wouldn't care that deeply. So I doubt that the composition alone (or lack thereof) was the primary reason the fan-base didn't take off to become a permanently populated one, like at other well known franchises.

Personally I think the following reasons were the cause of that:

1. Lack of new material. Yes, we just got a new movie of above average length, but in a time when Netflix series or a movie every year are the norm, I believe people lose interest if there is insufficient material to consume. Why would they invest themselves into Avatar where they have to wait years, when Star Wars for example gives them a new TV episode almost every week nowadays?
   • I think not having an animated series for Avatar was a huge mistake franchise-wise. I doubt Star Wars would be as popular today if the Clone Wars animated series had never happened and everybody would have had only the prequel movies to chew on for 10 years. The Clone Wars series drew in an entire new generation of fans.

I think the comics were (and are) a really good idea. For me, they give that need for extra content in a really nice way. But, to be brutally honest, the big delay in getting TWOW off the ground was a major stumbling block. When those delays first started happening a decade ago, there should have been a move to bring out comics and some additional material then to keep people in the fold right back then, rather than having absolutely nothing whatsoever except "We're working on it, honest.". A series of graphic novels over the decade would have given us a fantastic chance to keep people interest, bring in new people, and also expand the world building and canon of the universe. I suspect we're going to have a similar problem with the gap between TWOW and A3 as well. Animated could be good, but Dark Horse did a solid on the graphic novels, and I feel they should have been brought in much earlier.

1. Avatar being likely the most politically charged franchise of recent times. I heard it being described with terms ranging from 'woke' to 'cultural appropriation' (how can culture, an unlimited resource, even be appropriated?). That by itself, or the internet fall-out of it, may be off-putting for some people. I believe people are more reluctant to declare themselves Avatar fans as opposed to for example Star Wars fans because the latter would be more "acceptable". I think nobody really reads a political message into people dressing up as storm troopers at fan conventions, but what if people dress up as Na'vi or as RDA troops? Would that still convey the same innocent fun?

It's probably just because it speaks to my own politics pretty well, but for me that's a positive. "This is a story I can get behind! Let's do this!". That said, even for people who dislike the message, I wouldn't neccessarily think that hits TWOWs lasting appeal, as I feel the messaging was even stronger in Avatar '09, and while the politics people off getting into the universe in the first place for either movie (since the politics were well known in advance), it wouldn't be something that would dissuade ongoing interest.

1. Related to item #1: there is not enough story-telling-depth in the franchise at this moment. Some people who otherwise could have been interested in the Avatar franchise are for example still alienated by the fact that humans are mainly the bad guys and Na'vi the good guys and that the overall franchise story is somewhat shallow. In some circles people refer to the RDA as the 'good guys' since they identified more with them than with the Na'vi.

I don't feel any affinity or identification with the humans, but I do think writing out Trudy was a big mistake. It'd have been fairly easy storywise to have her survive the crash and be rescued and remain behind with Max, Norm et. al. - This would have allowed for a more engaging presence among the humans loyal to the Na'vi, as it'd give a more warrior-orientated cultural figure, as Norm and Max are both science guys, as well as a human that Neytiri can relate to and not have an exclusively antagonistic relationship with. The Na'vi loyal humans were an underutilised element in TWOW. I don't think there'd be any value in making the RDA relatable or anything other than what they are - they are central to the message of the story for what they are. But the loyal humans are also central to that message. The RDA represent where we have gone wrong and what we doing that's wrong, the na'vi represent what is right and what we should be doing, and the loyal humans are choices we can make to better ourselves - the intention that get us from one to the other. In Avatar '09, Jake and Trudy provide us that role perfectly - but in TWOW that doesn't exist, and Max, Norm et. al. really don't exist in any meaningful way.

I think the first Avatar was a perfect all-round combination of elements that resonated better with people. It being completely new at the time was likely also a factor. I believe a lot of people who were initially fans eventually grew out of it (due to lack of new material) and moved on, looking back to the franchise as just a phase they went through. I think TWOW was hampered by being released so late. It failed to properly facilitate continuity for the fan-base; old fans had mostly moved on by that point and its perhaps dated format failed to hold the attention of new fans that are mostly used to episodic series.

Therefore I think that this rumor that there would be a 9 hour version of Avatar 3 that would be cut into a mini series actually makes a lot of sense to do if they want to salvage the current state of the franchise.

Yep - the gap was waaaaay too big. As I write above, as soon as production started to slip, they should have started to think about graphic novels at that point, as well as expanding the 2010 game. Rendering some of deleted scenes from Avatar '09 and doing a cinematic re-release of a "true" extended cut with them added in around the time of the delayed first slot for TWOW in 2014/2015 would have been a good and relatively easy way to keep people engaged too - which could have been given a 4K Bluray re-release in 2016. Also ultimately just not letting development hell get that bad. Sometimes delay is inevitable, but ultimately, bad project management is bad project management.

Agree the mini series full-cut could be good. I don't think it'll happen (due to fears it'd cannibalise the movie) but I think it would be good. Honestly they should do an extended/re-cut of TWOW as well. I suspect there's a shit-ton of material (beyond what was released as deleted scenes so far) that could be used, and trimming some of the overly long scenes. There's a better cut of TWOW waiting to be made, and it's a shame JC has no inclination to act on it, as there's a truly worthy sequel to Avatar '09 in there, waiting to get out. I didn't believe that first time I saw it, but on rewatching... you can see the potential in there, trying to get out. A re-cut and perhaps some graphic novels set at the time of the TWOW events working together could be a lovely combination.

 

[Blazil]

Splashing around in the shallow end of the world building pool

The long short movie

I definitely agree with these 2 points. I think Cameron went overboard and tried to put too much characters and too much plot starting points in one movie. So there was no room to show a lot of cultural details in this setup when all attention goes to character development. We are bombarded with so many character related things in just the first half of the movie:

• Jake and Neytiri have no less than 4 children, each with their own mini-storyline (I would say 2 or 3 would have been enough from a storytelling perspective)
• 15 years have suddenly passed since the end of the first movie and now the RDA is immediately back and we hardly get to see what all our known characters did in that time (they could have spent 10-15 minutes with the Sully family and their children before the RDA returns and show some proper Omatikaya way of life, with them learning to live with the damage the RDA did in the first movie, etc)
• Quaritch and his goons return as Recoms, and Quaritch suddenly has a human son in the form of Spider who happens to be a good friend of the Sully family (bringing back Quaritch as a villain is acceptable, but why the whole subplot with Spider? This movie would have had room for so much more without him)
• Not one but two new cultures, Metkayina and Tulkun. These involve around 6-7 new named characters that we must get to know also

And sorry to compare with Star Wars again, but I kind of imagine James Cameron watching a first cut of TWOW and going "I may have gone too far in a few places" when watching the first hour, like George Lucas did at Star Wars Episode I with those 4 interweaved endings.

Character focus and character development is good and everything, but I daresay there are too many characters and character arcs in TWOW. Maybe that isn't the root cause of why the movie didn't have longer lasting popularity, but this choice threw the whole movie off balance in my opinion. It is so densely packed that I don't think the average person can take it all in in the first viewing nor the second. I know I could not; I initially felt nothing at Neteyam's death for example, but after multiple views I now do.

I will end this post for now, but there is a lot more I would like to reply to

 

[Wind12]

Another thing that could have been an issue is that really A2 is half of the whole that A2 and A3 are supposed to be as originally they were supposed to be one movie, but it got too inflated so they decided to split it into 2 films.

 

[Nawmtirea]

I completely agree that instead of waiting 13 years, they should have finished off more deleted scenes from A1 and re-released it to theatres in 2015 orr 2016 and billed it as "the version you were meant to see", including scenes like the dream hunt instead of "becoming one of the people" being just about finger paints. When A1 was finally re-released in the September before ATWOW was released, this "never seen before" version is the one that I thought they would finally release and I was very disappointed when, not only did they re-release the shorter theatrical version, but the only scene added was the jarring and unnecessary "you know this isn't over" line. I love James Cameron and Avatar, but marketing has dropped the ball a few times. Avatar is still a part of my daily life 14 years later, and I can't wait for more, but my online presence has dwindled to almost nothing (partly because my life has gotten a lot busier in 14 years too, but also because my spouse, myself, and you guys seem to be the only ones who ever cared).

 

[Fake Sully]

My main thought (without having read 100% here) is following:

1. A1 was something completely new in terms of CGI. People were just obsessed with it.
2. Nonne knew if, and if yes, when a new film would be released. This time we have a rough timescale for multiple movies!

 

[Sopyu ftu äo]

I definitely agree with these 2 points. I think Cameron went overboard and tried to put too much characters and too much plot starting points in one movie. So there was no room to show a lot of cultural details in this setup when all attention goes to character development. We are bombarded with so many character related things in just the first half of the movie:

• Jake and Neytiri have no less than 4 children, each with their own mini-storyline (I would say 2 or 3 would have been enough from a storytelling perspective)
• 
  
• Quaritch and his goons return as Recoms, and Quaritch suddenly has a human son in the form of Spider who happens to be a good friend of the Sully family (bringing back Quaritch as a villain is acceptable, but why the whole subplot with Spider? This movie would have had room for so much more without him)
• Not one but two new cultures, Metkayina and Tulkun. These involve around 6-7 new named characters that we must get to know also

Yep. I must admit I don't think I had all the new characters in my head until the 2nd watching, and the 3rd before I even had my head fully around who the Metkayina kids all were, and who was doing what and when. I don't think "resurrecting" Quaritch on it's own was a bad call, but I think with Ardmore kicking around as well, one or the other was kinda redundant. I think it'd have been better storytelling to leave Quaritch dead and buried, not bother with Spider, and to have Ardmore as the genocidal muscle, with Selfridge back as well. Selfridge was an excellent embodiment of the banality of evil, which is something the humans really lack in TWOW.

• 15 years have suddenly passed since the end of the first movie and now the RDA is immediately back and we hardly get to see what all our known characters did in that time (they could have spent 10-15 minutes with the Sully family and their children before the RDA returns and show some proper Omatikaya way of life, with them learning to live with the damage the RDA did in the first movie, etc)

Abso-frikkin-lutely this. With that simpler story we really could have dedicated a good 20+ extra minutes to that casual 15 years we just leaped over - time we needed for immersion, and to bond with the kids, and see the Omatikaya at peace, and how the family fit into that, and how Jake handles that, having only come to the clan and been exposed to the culture in a time of conflict. I really feel the Next Shadow comic storyline would have made for an excellent film... as the main part of film, with the final third being the start of TWOW, ending with the family leaving the forest for the reef, and the rest of TWOW being A3, with a reduced character count.

I completely agree that instead of waiting 13 years, they should have finished off more deleted scenes from A1 and re-released it to theatres in 2015 orr 2016 and billed it as "the version you were meant to see", including scenes like the dream hunt instead of "becoming one of the people" being just about finger paints. When A1 was finally re-released in the September before ATWOW was released, this "never seen before" version is the one that I thought they would finally release and I was very disappointed when, not only did they re-release the shorter theatrical version, but the only scene added was the jarring and unnecessary "you know this isn't over" line. I love James Cameron and Avatar, but marketing has dropped the ball a few times. Avatar is still a part of my daily life 14 years later, and I can't wait for more, but my online presence has dwindled to almost nothing (partly because my life has gotten a lot busier in 14 years too, but also because my spouse, myself, and you guys seem to be the only ones who ever cared).

Totally agree. At some point I really want to go do a fan edit of Avatar '09, adding in some of the deleted scenes (even though I have *no* ability to do any rendering on them) just for personal satisfaction of having a more complete experience. Sadly I'm not that familiar with the way blu-ray handled encoding and container formats comaprd to DVD, so I wasted a load of time trying to get the source material off the disc, and other stuff in life gets in the way.